tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post114547314846596002..comments2024-02-15T12:08:49.940-05:00Comments on Sojourner: It's The Principle of the ThingBrad Williamshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145571676733944912006-04-20T18:21:00.000-04:002006-04-20T18:21:00.000-04:00Elizabeth,Point #2 - do you really want to do this...Elizabeth,<BR/><BR/>Point #2 - do you really want to do this? There were 613 laws, not including the additions, etc.<BR/><BR/>Point #3 - simply wrong.<BR/><BR/>Point #4 - This , forgive me if I am wrong, seems to me to be a subtle, even if not intended, slap at the New Testament scriptures. Everything is supposed to be about pointing to Jesus, and the Apostles expounded upon what Jesus taught in the epistles. The Old Testament IS NOT THE GREATER REVELATION! The New Testament is not some vehicle that is supposed to point us back to Torah. The Old Testament is the seed, and the bud, the New Testament is the flower.<BR/><BR/>To the paragraph below point #4 - Honestly, this sounds a lot to me like esoteric mumbo jumbo. <BR/><BR/>If you "simply ignored or just left out", or accepted things before without looking at the Hebrew, as you say, then couldn't that still be the case? What some professed Hebrew scholar you have spoken to, or many even (even if its your husband) says, does not override what others who also know Hebrew might believe. And on the idea of Sabbath, no one denies, it is as you say, Saturday (or 6pm Friday, etc.) But on whether we are to keep it or whether we can worship on Sunday, and if it is right to call it the Lord's Day, then well, the jury is still out. <BR/> <BR/>The "real meaning" of the scriptures? How about the perspicuity of scripture?<BR/><BR/>I'm sorry, Brad, and Elizabeth, if I might seem a little excited. Perhaps I am seeing things in what you wrote (Elizabeth) that aren't there. Please tell me, are you a "messianic"? If you are, of what particular stream, if any, such as "two house" or whatever may be the case? Again, I apologize in advance if I am in the wrong here. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Even So...Even So...https://www.blogger.com/profile/14208866122431178938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145538244708208702006-04-20T09:04:00.000-04:002006-04-20T09:04:00.000-04:00I am "johnny come lately" to this series of postin...I am "johnny come lately" to this series of posting...so this may not fit in this particular line of comments but I have a few remarks to make considering this topic.<BR/><BR/>One is: WHEN did God FIRST command us to keep the Sabbath? Was it really at Mt. Sinai????<BR/><BR/>#2: When it says (in English) that our Lord came to abolish the LAW...if you go into the original language a bit what is referred to is the word "dogma" which the English dictionary describes as rules and laws of men...NOT OF GOD!!! What HE came to do away with was all the ADDITIONS and SUBTRACTIONS the Pharisees and others had put into following HIM...He said His burden was light, right? We have found it so for our own life. If only we could understand this!! What HE says for us to do is totally and simply for our good...when we observe the Sabbath as commanded, basically it is a TRUE day of rest, study, and prayer observed primarily at home (we have no Temple and no priesthood currently).<BR/><BR/>#3: WHEN and WHO changed the Sabbath to Sunday? Was it not in Constintine's time about 300 years after the LORD was ressurected? So you need to consider WHOM you are going to follow...<BR/><BR/>#4: Didn't HE say HIS WORD was above even HIS name? So then WHAT is HIS WORD then? Those verses in the NT that talk about scripture...WHAT scriptures? That would have to be the OT as this was written BEFORE the NT became scripture...right?<BR/><BR/>One thing that has so amazed us was when it was pointed out to us that in the OT, there are 19,000 times when the letters aleph and tov are sprinkled in there. Our LORD told us that HE was the alpha and omega, the begining and the end (in Hebrew those words are: aleph and tov)...therefore that is HIS signature ALL over the OT...that should make us sit and notice WHERE those are (a good Hebrew OT will show where these are located) and try to understand what is being pointed out there...<BR/><BR/>I don't think where hubby and I are currently or have been in the past ought to make a difference but I will state it here anyway. We were born into conservative protestant families who were at the church EVERY time the doors were open...we are now in our 5th decade of life...and in the past about 7 or 8 years have been into intense study of so many things that was simply ignored or left out of our earlier exposure. I am glad to see you examining this issue! Because understanding better about the Sabbath issue will lead you into understanding many other things as well. There are many who have mastered Hebrew and can point out so many things to us, as well as these wonderful computer programs today also help us better understand the real meanings behind many things. We also need help in understanding things from the culture of the time scripture was written plus the idioms of the language, etc. We love the KJV, but as my hubby likes to say, "the KJV boys were a bit biased here". Blessings on this path to you all...when we desire truth HE will lead us to it! When the search for truth becomes the major thing, rather than subscribing to men's ideas we really begin to get blessed!!<BR/><BR/>A final question: How many people REALLY keep even Sunday as a true day of rest? For most who are involved heavily in the church, it is anything BUT a day of rest...it is a day one needs to recoup from on Monday, especially preachers, right???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145505061629103932006-04-19T23:51:00.000-04:002006-04-19T23:51:00.000-04:00Indeed, we are nearly in total agreement. It is p...Indeed, we are nearly in total agreement. It is precisely <I>because</I> of your line of reasoning that I still disagree with you. Any sin against man is sin because it is an affront to God, in whose image man is made. Therefore, the more people a single sin affects, the more heinous the crime. By this definition alone we can conclude that wife-stealing is more heinous than pen-stealing because of the human, and therefore Godward impact of the sin.Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145492298249193362006-04-19T20:18:00.000-04:002006-04-19T20:18:00.000-04:00I think we are more in agreement than disagreement...I think we are more in agreement than disagreement, certainly. <BR/><BR/>Correct me if I am wrong, but when Christ speaks of tolerance (in this context) is he not talking about <I>judgment day</I> being more tolerable? You make it sound like hell will be more tolerable for some - and whether that is so or not, I don't think these verses makes that point - at least not clearly enough for me to say, "Yes, I agree."<BR/><BR/>God is perfectly just - so when God says that the penalty for stealing a pencil from work is eternal torment in a lake of burning sulphur, hey, I need to make sure that I understand the magnitude of even the smallest sin.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps if you stopped measuring sin according to the magnitude of the sin's effect, and measured it instead according to the magnitude of the person you are sinning against (God) you will appreciate my perspective? <BR/><BR/>If I swing an axe at a stone no one cares. If I swing an axe at a tree - well, if a person owned that tree they might care - but if I swung an axe at a person - that person would certainly care. The point is that the severity of the action is tied, not to the action, but to the target that action imposes itself upon. In the case of sin - as you rightly point out - our sin is against God - and the punishment for sin against an eternal God must be equal to the nature of Him whom is sinned against.<BR/><BR/>In this way I say one sin is as condemned as the next - because both are sins against an infinite God.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145485953372046622006-04-19T18:32:00.000-04:002006-04-19T18:32:00.000-04:00Psalm92,All comments are invited here, so long as ...Psalm92,<BR/><BR/>All comments are invited here, so long as they are not profane or personally abusive. In fact, they are encouraged. Thanks for stopping by, and I hope to see you again!Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145485765695923972006-04-19T18:29:00.000-04:002006-04-19T18:29:00.000-04:00In case you're interested in my uninvited opinion ...In case you're interested in my uninvited opinion ... just stumbled across you and this discussion is fascinating ... <BR/><BR/>Re the last sentence in the post - Keeping the Lord's day special definitely helps in sanctification - eg there's a list of blessings at the end of Isaiah 58 attached to "finding the sabbath a delight," i won't quote it all here. Keeping a whole day free from secular issues, purely to focus on worshipping God, that's a huge benefit to your spiritual life. Partly cos it's one aspect of obedience, your reasonable service, and partly cos it's good for you.<BR/><BR/>And just to endorse the London Baptist Confession - if you wanted to pursue it, there's a series of questions in the Westminster Larger Catechism which address lots of relevant issues here (Q115-121)<BR/><BR/>now i'll clear out of your discussion!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145483458234382192006-04-19T17:50:00.000-04:002006-04-19T17:50:00.000-04:00Ultimately, all sin is wrong because it is an offe...Ultimately, all sin is wrong because it is an offense to God. If this were not true, then how do we explain Psalm 51:4, "Against You, and You only, have I sinned." David is confessing to God here, after he killed Uriah and committed adultery with Bathsheba.<BR/><BR/>So if someone truly sins against a man, then it is ultimately a sin against the creator who made him. In this, I believe that we agree.<BR/><BR/>However, if we push the analogy of the "Sabbath", aren't we saying that the OT Sabbath is a foreshadowing of the Sabbath rest we have in Christ? I believe that we can also say that temporal punishments handed out by God are the same types of judgements that will be handed out at the last day. The punishment will fit the crime, and some affronts to God's holiness are worse than others.<BR/><BR/>I believe that hell will be worse for some than for others, and I believe that there will be varying degrees of enjoyment of heaven. How else will it be more 'tolerable' in the day of judgment for some cities than others? Surely this doesn't mean that more folks from Sodom and Gomorrha will be in heaven than the other cities Jesus pronounces judgement against?Brad Williamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00197301845256854051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13639235.post-1145478414611010822006-04-19T16:26:00.000-04:002006-04-19T16:26:00.000-04:00You seem to couple sin to its worldly consequence ...You seem to couple sin to its worldly consequence - as though sin were something that was committed against man first, and God second.<BR/><BR/>I think this is why we disagree.Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06734845463331170748noreply@blogger.com